More Questions & Answers
...to the question of the week...
Question: "What, in your opinion, is the difference between a good song and a great song?" Answers.
Question: "Here is a challenge for anyone who wants to take it up. How about demonstrating how you would improve on a line?" Answers.
Question: "What kind of atmosphere do you need to work in? Do you have rituals? Guaranteed places of inspiration? Do you sit down everyday at a specific time to write?" Answers.
"When you ask for a critique of your song and/or lyrics (whether it's to this ng or somewhere else), what are you looking for in the responses? How can you tell a "good" critique from a "bad" one, besides the obvious 'this song sucks' line? If and when you give a critique, what are you keeping your eyes (ears) open for?"
~Barby~ said:
(When you ask for a critique of your song and/or lyrics (whether it's to
this ng or somewhere else), what are you looking for in the responses?)
I want to know if my lyrics flow easily. Is there anything or any line that
doesn't makes sense? When you finish reading the lyric..do you understand the whole storyline? Most important to me is: Did you "connect yourself" to the lyric? Did it stir any emotion in you? Last..but not least..do you see anything in the way I structured the lyric..that you might suggest ways to make it a tighter lyric?
(How can you tell a "good" critique from a "bad" one, besides the obvious
"this song sucks" line?)
A good critque makes me knock myself up on the side of my head and say:" Why
didn't I think of that?"
To me..a bad critque rips apart everything about the song. It's not only bad
because it hurts..but it's bad because it isn't productive.
Writers are like children..we all need a good hug after being scolded. In other
words..if you can't say something nice..say nothing at all.
(If and when you give a critique, what are you keeping your eyes (ears)
open for?)
Emotions...a good lyric..whether it's from a seasoned writer who knows the
craft well..or from a beginner..it has to have something that touches some
emotion in me. And I love it when I see lyrical lines that I wish I'd written
myself. Lyrical lines that just seem to jump off the page and dance.
Andy Le Fevre said:
Irene,
I glad you brought this up - to be honest I'm dissapointed
in the number and quality of critiques I've seen so far on
RMMS; imho song replies which simply say "loved it" or "great song"
are actually worse than useless. Some praise is ok but give me
constructive criticism any day - you WILL LEARN from this kind
of critique and move your song writing forward...!
Regarding the number of critiques being posted - I see lots more
writers posting songs and wanting comments than are
prepared to spend a few minutes commenting on other songs.
For my own part I try and at least break even on this score and
I feel that in trying to critique some one else's song you will actually
be doing your own (future) song writing good - as (I hope!) you start
to appreciate and learn song writing craft...
Moving (finally) on to your main question: "what are you looking
for in the (critique) responses?":
An honest appraisal of:
Hope you get some good comments to your question!!
Dave Laurence said:
(When you ask for a critique of your song and/or lyrics (whether it's to
this ng or somewhere else), what are you looking for in the responses?)
A response from both the left and right sides of the brain! I want to know
if/how my work has reached the listener on an emotional level. I also want
opinions about well the song was created; something beyond the "where's the
hook?" statement. Is there a lyric that seems out of place; that is, takes
you in a different direction from where the song is going? Did you think
that intricate internal rhyme was clever? Did you even notice it?
(How can you tell a "good" critique from a "bad" one, besides the obvious
"this song sucks" line?)
A good critique is, above all else, constructive! A complaint I've often
heard is that "he says it's a nice song, but doesn't elaborate." Accentuate
the positive, and you will be able to discuss the weak points of a song
without the writer becoming defensive. Most writers I know really want to
know if something isn't working, but at the same time, they don't want to
*hear* it. Some critiquers can find glaring faults in a song but don't want
to bring them up for fear of hurting someone's feelings. It's a Catch-22.
The whole point of a critique, after all, is searching for possible
improvements. The good ones attempt to build the weaknesses up. The bad ones
attempt to tear down.
(If and when you give a critique, what are you keeping your eyes (ears)
open for?)
Do unto others... I'd try to observe the same points I'd like in a critique
of my own work, and also pay special attention to any specific points the
writer may bring up. *Above all else, remember: No matter how good or how
bad, how positive or how negative, a critique is **one person's opinion!** *
Footnote: I hadn't given much thought to this topic until a few days ago,
when I had the pleasure of attending a workshop by Jack Hardy, who was
passing through Oklahoma. He took two of my favorite songs, one of which won
an award recently, and deflated my ego in such a way that I wish I could
have played ten more for him! Now that's how to critique!
Nicholas Delonas said:
(When you ask for a critique of your song and/or lyrics (whether it's to this ng or somewhere else), what are you looking for in the responses?)
1) A general impression of how much people seem to like the song overall.
2) Problem spots/misunderstandings. Sometimes I find that people take a
line the wrong way, which makes me want to change it. Sometimes people
will be baffled by the whole lyric, which generally tells me to start
over -- and I do just that. Sometimes I just shelve songs for a while if
a critique makes me realize they aren't working.
3) Ideas. I don't look for this specifically, but every now and then
someone will make a suggestion about a structural change, cut, or
addition that I'll use.
(How can you tell a "good" critique from a "bad" one, besides the obvious
"this song sucks" line?)
If a person says something that I had been wondering about already, it
immediately rings true and I know it's valid. As for what's a bad
critique, anything with sarcasm I guess.
Dylan said:
(When you ask for a critique of your song and/or lyrics (whether it's to
this ng or somewhere else), what are you looking for in the responses?)
If there is a part of the song I have doubts about, I look for comments
on that part.
I like to know if the Reader understands what the song is about, if the
lyrics make sense and if they were touched by them in any way.
(How can you tell a "good" critique from a "bad" one, besides the obvious
"this song sucks" line?)
I don't mind if someone writes and just says "I like it" I'm more
offended by someone who doesn't like it at all and writes line after
line of negetive comments based purely on taste.
A good critique is written from the point of view "This is only my
opinion, but.."
Passing on ideas and changes that can improve the song is much better
than dissing something without an alternative.
(If and when you give a critique, what are you keeping your eyes (ears)
open for?)
I read most lyrics, but rarely comment on them. I know some really crap
lyrics that have made great songs, so I always feel unable to give them
a proper chance without the music.
Steve Denson said:
(When you ask for a critique of your song and/or lyrics (whether
it's to this ng or somewhere else), what are you looking for in
the responses?)
The hardest critique to accept is when there is no critique at all.
So, what am I looking for when a critique actually comes from RMMS ?
This has evolved for me. When I first found RMMS I used too look
for something like "I like this" or "this needs work and this is why".
I discovered that lyrical depth was more important in the RMMS text
based forum, and found myself trying to avoid simplistic or cliche'
lines, ideas, and rhymes. Those points became metrics to avoid
unless purposefully used, and I wanted to find out from the critiquer
whether or not I was succeeding.
I've learned more than I ever wanted to know about mixed metaphor
while trying to acheive lyrical depth. So identifying that issue
is important to me.
I used to think scansion was important, but it is not possible to
tell if the meter works with a lyric alone. Even with music, scan
deviations can emphasise a point if done judiciously (kind of like
having riffs in the right places).
Today I like to find out: Does the lyric touch someone ? Is the
message clear ? Are there weak lines (and If so, why) ? Are there
any strong lines ? Is *tense* consistent ? If tense changes, does
it work ? Is there a significant character in a story ? Is the
lyric simple enough for anyone to understand, but at the same time
provide depth of detail and imagery so that the audience is drawn
in to what is said ? Does the hook work ? Is the hook too corny
even for Country ? If there is a framing device (phone call, letter,
personification, etc ...) is it effective ? Are inner rhymes and/or
alliteration abused ? If the lyric is intended to be commercial,
does it succeed ?
(How can you tell a "good" critique from a "bad" one, besides the
obvious "this song sucks" line?)
Another bad one is "this is great" with no other comment. Writers
can do better than that given time of course. If a song is great,
what is so darn good about it that calls for such praise ? A good
critique is when someone, usually the writer, learns something useful.
BTW: Everyone has a choice to filter out what someone says. If I
say your music bores me, you are welcome to reject such a statement
and I will not be offended. If such a statement offends you, sorry
about that ... everyone has their own subjective ideas of good and
bad that are products of life experiences.
Vickatoria said:
I'm afraid I'm one of those critiquers who post comments like " i like it",
"good work", worth working on....etc. Sometimes browsing through the posts,
I'll read a song that deserves a response. *It* looks lonely up there with
only the #1 after it and I want the writer to know that I thought the song had
merit. I do think that alot of the critiquers on this board tear songs apart,
and some actually take it a step further and re-write them. Not my style...and
certainly not in this media. As songwriters, I'm sure we all want to know if
our lyrics moved someone, if the feeling comes through, if we wrote something
in such a way that we held the interest of the reader. And then there are
times I'm sure often many of us are simply sharing a song. I find myself to be
my own worst critic...okay, now my fingers are getting tired, so for the rest
of my response, please see Han's post....!
Ken Denny said:
(When you ask for a critique of your song and/or lyrics (whether it's to
this ng or somewhere else), what are you looking for in the responses?)
Ideally someone to say, "I represent
(How can you tell a "good" critique from a "bad" one, besides the obvious
"this song sucks" line?)
If the critiquer particularly doesn't like a part of the song that I
think is the best part, then I have to assume that that person's taste
and mine are too far apart to get anything useful from the critique.
Some have said, for someone to say "I like it" without any further
information, it's useless. While I agree to a certain extent, it at
least lets you know that for at least one person, you don't need to
change anything.
(If and when you give a critique, what are you keeping your eyes (ears)
open for?)
I don't write many critiques. Every once in a while, I might read
something that really grabs me and I will write a simple "I like it a
lot" type of critique, which I understand doesn't help any, but I want
the writer to know that, at least for me, the song is great as it is
and I don't think anything needs to be changed. Usually when I do
that, I try to find at least one suggestion I can make. But yes, I am
guilty of the "I think it's great" type of critique on occassion.
truthsower@hotmail.com said:
Generally, I've always been more into what a song says rather than how it
sounds. So I like to see good rhymes (which can be a wide open area) and the
idea sustained through the whole song. Long songs are okay (look at El Paso
by Marty Robbins). And, if I'm gonna critique a song, I may sometimes
critique the finer points of technique and craftsmanship, but generally, I
critique on my emotional reaction to the lyric.
I also like songs that are "different" but fit into established parameters.
Today I heard "Hello, Goodbye" by the Beatles. It was a great hit, but, to
me, it is a very stupid song with asinine uncreative lyrics. I mean it
rhymes good, but there ain't a whole lot there. It was a smash! Then again,
there was a song called "Out Among The Stars" about a guy who robs a store,
is shot, is seen by his father on the news, and all the father can think of
is what the townsfolks are gonna say. It was never a hit. So, to my way of
thinking, "Out Among The Stars" was a better song because it was different.
"Hello Goodbye" was one more formulaic song by a great group (who put out
some sorry music).
When I post songs, it is usually just to share my writing. I've only posted
two songs, and neither of them was posted for critique, really. I say this
because as far as I'm concerned, those songs are finished. Now I might sing
them tomorrow and change everything, but I'm the writer and I can do that.
I don't consciously write for other folks anymore. I write for me. I'm much
happier that way.
Nancy said:
(When you ask for a critique of your song and/or lyrics (whether
it's to this ng or somewhere else), what are you looking for in
the responses?)
Basically I'm happy to get any kind of feedback... what works, what doesn't,
different places you can go with an idea... sometimes just one note or one
word can make a really big difference in the way a song comes across. AS a
science / technical writer, I've gotten very accustomed to editing and being
edited. Its just part of the deal if you want a good product. Period. If
someone says "I don't get this" it usually means there's something wonky
about what I've written, whether I agree with their particular fix or not...
so I take a closer look at it. And damn near anything can be fixed. I look at
the critique process in songwriting the same way. I guess what I'm trying to
say is what I'm usually looking for is insurance that I'm not approaching the
song with tunnel vision.
Kim Stone said:
I'll try to answer the question and stay on subject, but warning: I like to
ramble.
I believe when I am critiquing a song I am using techniques that I used in
English analyzing poetry -- what did the author convey? were they successful
in getting their point across? etc,... Then I try to see if there is an
easier/clearer way to say what the writer said. I also believe that for
every "bad" thing that I should also have something positive. I don't think
I should kiss up, but it is doing nothing but damage to the writer if all
you say is negative. Another thing I find to be effective is to use
specific examples to back up what you are saying - good or bad. Details are
very good -- "it stinks" is not so good.
When asking for a critique I pretty much want the same in return. Tell
me what you felt. How would you say it better? These are all good tools
to give CONSTRUCTIVE criticism....
This is all, however, my humble opinion.
Irene asked: "What, in your opinion, is the difference between a good song and a great song?"
A good song is one you'll remember for a while. A great song is one you'll
remember forever.
That makes the theme to Gilligan's Island a great song. :-)
A good song is one that most listeners of the song's genre like to hear.
A great song is one that elicits a palpable emotional response. That
could be tears, chills up the spine, joy, excitement, etc. A great song
can also have a deep calming quasi-meditative effect. It's rare, but
every now and then a great piece of music can leave you speechless.
A good song is one that catches the attention of your ears OR your heart.
A great song is one that catches the attention of your ears AND your heart.
A good song elicits an emotional response in the writer.
A good song is doing your job...
A great song will pin down a time and a place forever for you without any
outside stimuli. There are great songs and great performances that I'll always
remember the first time I heard them on what would have otherwise been a very
forgettable day.
Good songs are enjoyable to hear. Lyrics needn't be intelligent as long as
they're not dopey.
Great songs are super on all levels: performance, arrangement, production,
composition (both words and music). [Two examples, out of many, for me are
"Strawberry Fields Forever" and "Bridge Over Troubled Water."] They're
distinctive. I tend to hear new aspects in them upon repeated listening -- and
actively seek something new each time I hear them. They draw me in, eliciting
a deeper level of listening commitment from me than songs which are merely
good.
In my subjective point of view, a good song is one that I like and don't mind
hearing again.
A great song is one I wish I could've written myself, and I would go out of my
way to hear it again...
A good song is 3 or 4 out of 5. A great song is 5 out of 5.
A great song will stand the test of time. How many hit songs today will be
around in 30 years?
Gilligan's Island theme song is great, for it's genre that is. I actually
think the songwriting in many TV themes are great. That opening Barney Miller
bass line or the funky groove of Sanford & Son. Priceless.
A good song makes your foot move. A great song moves you inside too.
Have thought a lot about this one and enjoyed the responses but whew, this
is a toughie. I loved Barby's first answer and maybe that's as close to
really defining the difference as we can ever hope to agree on.
A good song is one I enjoy singing to in progression with the rest of the
cd, and I won't skip over it.
I find this question very interesting. Do songs really stand up to time?
In my opinion very often the novelty wears off. A song starts out being
great but having heard it for a couple of (thousand) times it ends up
being just good. Today I can't really understand the taste of music I
had some years ago.
It depends on what perspective you are coming from, as well. There is the
personal perspective, where a song can be great to one person and trash to
another. You could also be talking about a "universally great" song, which
is a whole 'nother ball game. Both perspectives have been touched on
previously, I just wanted to clarify I'm going for the personal one, with a
performer's twist. That said:
A good song is appealing to listeners who are into the song's genre....
You like a good song. You love a great song.
I think this depends upon the disposition of the individual listener. As a
musician, I thorougly enjoy listening to music that has a lot of creativity
and displays of musical virtuosity. I can enjoy music with these elements
even in music that seems to be less "emotional" and at the same time, the
creativity and virtuosity evoke emotional responses out of me!
To me the difference is mainly the melody, for most people. A great song
holds up when the words are rewritten in another language. If the words
are great also, it is icing on the cake. Now, if the question were what
is a great melody...that harder to define. A great song elicits a high
degree of emotion on the listener, as stated by others in this thread.
Irene asked: "Here is a challenge for anyone who wants to take it up. How about
demonstrating how you would improve on a line? For instance, let's take
this rather uninteresting line:
"Sticking within the meter (ta da DA ta da DAAA, ta DA ta da DAAA), how
would you improve upon it? Before you do, I would like to put your
responses on my RMMS page (url below), so if you DON'T want it to appear
there, please let me know. Also note, this is NOT a line from a song
(at least not one that I wrote!), so copyrights and such not at issue
here. If you would like to, please explain what you think is wrong with
the line and how you came to your new version. Not necessary, but it
would be interesting to hear your process." (Sure got a lot of responses to this one!)
Steve Denson said: "Sounds like a showing vs saying exercise. Don't have much time
for this but here's a few lines that popped in my head.
'the chair fell when I left; the door slapped my behind'
Steve Guidos said:
"Improvement is a subjective and relative thing, and would
depend on many things, e.g. the context of the line within
the rest of the song, the exact emotion that the line and
song are attempting to convey, etc.
Given that, one way to 'improve' the line while still
staying within the meter would be to use more active and
descriptive verbs. Examples: 'I jumped off the chair and
rushed to the door' or 'I slunk off the chair and crawled to
the door'.
Another way to 'improve' the line is to use more descriptive
nouns; 'I slunk off the sofa and crawled to the exit'. This
line also has the 'improvement' of alliteration, the two 's'
words of 'slunk' and 'sofa', but the nouns 'sofa' and
'chair' are not quite synonyms. Another alliteration: 'I
slid off the chair and staggered out the door'. All of
these lines convey totally different emotional undercurrents
and storylines.
Another way to 'improve' the line would be to use internal
rhymes: 'I hopped off the chair and popped out the door'.
Another way to 'improve' a line would be to use opposites,
but without any adjectives in the original line it's tough
to do here. 'The chair was hard but the door was easy' ?
Nope! ;-)"
Terri Bright said:
"I'm going to be insubordinate here in the meter department. The line as
is has too many words ('Omit needless words!' -Strunk and White). Some can
be eliminated and still serve the implied melody. So 'I got up off my
chair' would become 'I stood up.'
"And I would use a preposition for the second half, as in 'walked out the
door,' (And I'd use 'out' instead of 'to' because I do not want a whole
other line about what happened *at* the door once I was *to* it- that's more
than I want to hear about a door).
"So, 'I got up off the chair, and walked to the door' would become
Bob Clayton said:
"Sticking to the meter is hard -- what's the meter? I can get 3/4 or 4/4 out of
this, or even 6/8 if I feel Celtic. You could make it a bluesy thing:
Got up off the chair (Bah duh duh da dum!)
or play with the words 'straight':
[ ]Got up [from my] chair, [ ] walked [straight out] the door/
Or play with alternatives:
'I got up from my cares, walking right 'cross the floor'
or
'I arose from sitting to open the portal/
Nancy Gale said:
Aaron said:
Sherrie Davis said:
I'm lookin at leaving you
(exerpt from 'Is It Just Pity?')"
John C. said:
My chair crashed against the wall,
My chair groaned as I heaved up,
My chair did a quick cartwheel,
Thanks for the question."
Peter said:
- stevengale - said:
LarenCorie said:
Glen King said:
Seth Jackson said:
=Bob= said:
From the chair to the air, 'cross floor to the door
~Barby~ said:
Ok so I cheated..I added lines. Send 100 door bell ditchers to my house at 4
am..I repent :o)
KYCRIMSON said:
"I left the way of my yesterday and I walked right through tomarrow!"
...alot could probably come out of that. You really have to know what context
the line is meant for...but I don't want to beat a dead horse .
Patrick J. McDonough said:
I stepped off of the chair, strolled proud to the door
Hal said:
Aimless, dark, alternative, driveling psycobabble . . .
"What kind of atmosphere do you need to work in? Do you have rituals? Guaranteed places of inspiration? Do you sit down everyday at a
specific time to write?"
Holly said:
Good question Irene!
When the mood strikes, and definitely striking while the iron is hot is key
(lets see...any more cliches I could use??? 8-)...if I get a line or an
idea, and then I'm sidetracked by something, its gone. I do the first draft
by hand, always with a pencil, and then subsequent drafts on the
computer...its easier to cut and paste 8-) I WISH I had a guaranteed place
of inspiration...but usually its while I'm doing dishes, in the shower, or
DRIVING! I hate that! But I bought a mini tape recorder (you know, the kind
I *should* have gotten in college so I could sleep through class?) for the
car, so that helps a bit.
If I'm just writing lyrics, anywhere will do, but if I'm writing lyrics and
music, I usually fire up my 4 track, just in case I do something inspired
and can't duplicate it.
So, thanks for asking!
Ty Thurman said:
> What kind of atmosphere do you need to work in?
> Do you have rituals?
> Guaranteed places of inspiration?
> Do you sit down everyday at a specific time to write?
Rik said:
Oddly, I probably do the most work in the car.
Play the radio, get ideas, play tapes, get ideas, write everything down,
try not to crash into the wall.
I'll grab a number of "works in progress" (got lotsa those), stuff them
in an envelope and trek up to the Borders Bookstore coffee shop, where
I'll grab a cuppajoe and proceed to go thrhough them one by one,
rewriting and polishing. After a goodly amount of this, I often find a
new and fresh thought enters the picture, at which time I attempt to
work on that one.
By this time, I have usually had 5 cups of coffee, so I proceed to go
home and stare at the ceiling for three hours, trying vainly to sleep.
I have had some success by gathering several legal pads, then writing
each verse and the chorus on separate pads. This gives me plenty of room
to edit, scratch out, scribble, and generally make a mess of what I
started with--which is rarely what I end up with.
Dolores said:
I need peace and quiet and a room to myself.
1. A computer for my word processing (paste and spell check and bold and change
the font again games)
Actually, all are essential - now.
Do I write more now than my pen and paper days? NO.
Jim Hathaway said:
I find I write, really write, in my "dorm room."
Nah, I wish I was still in college but those days are long gone. When we
finally bought a house big enough for me to have my own TV/smoking/writing
room, we didn't have much money for furnishing that "non-essential" room or
decorating it. I bought a used chair from my former secretary for $50, and
tacked up various rock and roll posters I had saved up since college days. A
battered poster from John Lennon's "Imagine" album (yep, that would be the
poster that came in the vinyl LP), a poster of the Rolling Stone cover of the
Clash from about 1981 that an old roomie got by writing to Annie Leibovitz,
an REM cover off RS from a couple of years ago, and a b/w photo of Elvis
Costello that I accumulated somewhere, probably while working on the college
newspaper. I also have some postcards from Robert Penn Warren that I had
framed (correspondence about whether he would do a poem for the Vanderbilt
Poetry Review; oh! I was such the esthete!) and a cartoon mourning the death
of a great newspaper I worked for long, long ago.
So, in the shadows of these giants, I bang on my guitars and struggle
mightily to find melodies that sound fresh over my tired chords. But I rarely
get the inspiration in that room. That's where I grind. The inspiration is
often a phrase overheard at work, or some little incident that triggers a
phrase that sounds good as a hook for a chorus, or at least as a title. I
will write down the phrase; sometimes even "borrow" a tune that's in my head
and use that meter to bang out a verse or two right where I am (which always
seems to be at work) and then retire to my "dorm room" to sweat out the
melody and finish out the lyrics.
The latest song I wrote, the title came to me at an art gallery opening. I
yanked my partner aside and said "don't let me forget this." Then I got a
fairly inspired melody line early the next day. I rewrote it maybe ten times
over the next week or so. Major changes in the lyrics each time. I didn't
used to do that, but between this group and my partner's wonderfully honed
lyrics, I have been inspired to really work to edit and polish the words
until they sound, well, right. It's no longer enough to say, "well, it
works." There's too many of you out there, working too hard at it, to settle
for less than my best.
Okay, enough bandwidth. As much as I am weirdly attracted to the ongoing
self-destruction of a usegroup psyche, I find it is these threads of insight
into how others write and deal with the writer's often difficult life that are
the best reads in rmms.
One other thing for comment by the group. I find as I concentrate on my
songwriting I get more and more elemental in what I listen to. Right now
it's Hank Williams Sr. (not that great big new set, but a collection of 41 of
his songs I bought a couple of weeks ago) and Robert Johnson. Those two
contain the seeds of everything (well, okay, throw in Cole Porter and the
Gershwins) I hold dear in popular songs. Three chords and simple lyrics that
paint a thousand dreams in a single couplet.
In life, honesty is sometimes not worth the effort. In art it is essential."
jAZ said:
As street as I appear to be in comparison to the rest of my colleagues...I
never try and force anything musical. It can give you hemorhoids of the left
side of the brain...much like it's actual lifetime counterpart...and then of
course you also get the same results.
Lyrically, I carry numerous notebooks around and just constantly add lines
everywhere, it's just a scratch pad anyway.., and like the rest of you I am
constantly writing on every scrap of paper I can find. Occasionally I will sit
and write an entire lyrical composition in one 'continuous sitting'. Sneaking
in pieces here and there during the day, but those are rare and I usually never
take the first draft of anything!!.
Musically...on guitar if it's mining for 'starter' material...I'll take a few
puffs. Sometimes you can't play the chords too well, but they sure do sound
pretty and you can make up weird variants...(play an E chord but drop your hand
position one string (fretting E-A-and D...don't hit the G!)...voila...heavy ass
B. This is the crap you discover when you're...
Electronically...sometimes (with some type of buzz) I will go in and
listen to a midi arrangement...fiddle around and ALWAYs do a 'save as'. It
doesn't take a genius to know that switching the sounds on the tracks alters
all kinds of shtuff. Try and 'scale it down to a few 'starter tracks before
altering EVERYTHING..with this you get not soup but stew. Again 'SAVE AS'.
Also on MIDI I will pick a 4 bar section and loop it and walk around the place
listening to how different areas of the room give off unique over and
undertones. Then I'll usually act on it and do my best to re-create that with
some type of instrumentation. This yields amazingly consistant soundscape
material...and can spin off their own songs.
AS in a rehearsal situation....KEEP THE TAPE ROLLING!!!!! and NEVER erase
anything. I have LOADS of Micro cassette tapes from forever it seems and there
are so many ideas on that stuff that, well it boggles the mind.
"I don't endorse any of my 'habits' because what's good for one silly goose....
"But I can't argue with the results."
Ace "I wish I was back in Texas" Ford said:
>What kind of atmosphere do you need to work in?
> Do you have rituals?
>Guaranteed places of inspiration?
>Do you sit down everyday at a specific time to write?
- stevengale - said:
> What kind of atmosphere do you need to work in?
I need my computer too. I use it to write the lyrics. I print a new sheet
every couple of new lines. Very environmentally unfriendly, but that's what
it takes. I like to scribble on the white space of the paper.
> Do you have rituals?
> Guaranteed places of inspiration?
> Do you sit down everyday at a specific time to write?
> I'm interested in your creative environment and what you need in order to write
Another creative environment on the opposite end of the spectrum is to work in
total isolation and silence. Like in the mountains, by the sea, on a rock
alongside a river, in a desert, in a field. But i miss my computer so I bring
my notepad, pen and mini tape recorder. Hmmmm.... maybe it's time for a
laptop...
KYCRIMSON said:
I need quiet...not neccesarily the lack of sound...but I need there to be no
sound directed at me...no distractions. I also like to write at night with a
low wattage light-bulb. I swear to god. It just sort of gives me a warm secure
feeling when I write.
"I also have to get rid of clutter in my space...I hate when I'm writing and
try to record something on my 4-track and start tripping over a cord or knock
something over...a real mood killer.
...basically...no distractions.
Oh yeah...I have to use a pencil. One of those disposable bic pencils that you
click out the lead with. My girlfriend is gives me hell because everytime we go to the grocery store
I'm picking up a pack...I have them all over the place and I still never seem
to have one when I need one.
Seth Jackson said:
:What kind of atmosphere do you need to work in?
:Do you have rituals?
:Guaranteed places of inspiration?
:Do you sit down everyday at a
:specific time to write?
Larry Collins said:
Oddly (also), I probably do the most writing in the car, but it's with
NO radio or tapes. I find that ANY music going on just totally
squashes my own creativity.
I often eat lunch alone, in places that are quiet, and ESPECIALLY with
no music playing. I watch and listen to things going on around me, or
sometimes I'll walk in with an idea, and work on it as I eat, running
part of a melody and some lyric through my mind.
Sherryl Jacobsen said:
I find solitude necessary to writing, even if it's a co-writing venture,
prefer to do my part alone and share it after. When my kids were young, late
nights were a necessity and that's probably still the best time for me but
anytime I can be pretty comfortable about not being interrupted works too.
Haven't been able to use the pc for writing, still like paper & pen, lots of
paper and don't actually type anything out until it's complete, on tape and
ready to be sent to the Copyright office. Old habit but that's the way I
like it until it's finished. Those filled trash bags that weigh only a few
ounces give me a sense of having accomplished something maybe.
Someone else mentioned coffee and that's part of my writing too, comfy,
barefoot, at the kitchen table, not in the office and the house all closed
up. Winter or Summer are my favorite times for that reason, Spring & Fall
the windows are usually open and I'm not crazy about the neighbors hearing,
lol...they wouldn't be either. Like a few others, my singing and playing
aren't anything to brag on but it does allow me to take a rough demo...for
others more talented that way to improve on. Cigarettes ( I KNOW they're
horrible things) are a constant too when writing though in honesty, most
burn up by themselves while hung up on a line.
Thanks for side-tracking us again, will be leaving in a few days for a week
or so and hopefully this thread and more like it will grow beyond your
wildest...
Steve Denson said:
> Do you have rituals?
> What kind of atmosphere do you need to work in?...I'm interested in your creative environment and what you need in order to write.
I can't work with a bunch of distractions - unless they are rythmic.
I keep a small table in my garage - it has a pile of unfinished lyrics
on it. I usually have a guitar there too, but I brought out my cheap
keyboard this week since I'm inspired to write a gospel song (I can't
beat the 3/4 gospel sound of my Casio with my guitar).
> Guaranteed places of inspiration?
A nice warm shower works good for inspiration, or getting through a
line or two I've poured over too long. Can you imagine the look on my
wife's face when she sees black crayon on the white tile ? No, I
haven't really gone that far yet, but it sure is tempting. I've lost
many ideas there for lack of a note pad.
> Do you sit down everyday at a specific time to write?
Andrea said:
I can work pretty much anywhere that's quiet enough for me to hear the
rhythm and melody in my head while I'm stooped over my notebook. I typically
write the melody and lyrics first, get that smoothed out, then work on the
chord progression and other musical details.
I also do a lot of writing in the car, but those usually end up all about
how much I hate traffic, with a lot of cursing.
As far as ironing out a song structure or something I'm having trouble with,
that also happens a lot while driving. It seems to be easier when I don't
have just that to focus on, and my mind can wander around and see what it
likes or doesn't like about a song.
=Bob= said:
I do all my composition in a room in my basement. In there,
I have two pianos, two guitars, computer, MIDI, stereo,
mics, etc. I like to work completely alone, with one
dim incandescent light on. I usually create from scratch
at the computer (CakeWalk) but sometimes I return to
the piano (my main instrument) or the guitar for some
tactile development. When I have something I like, I
call upstairs for my wife and daughter to come listen.
They critique. They also sing the other two parts.
I try to write each evening, but that's just not always
possible, I work a regular job. I usually write all day
on Saturdays and Sundays.
Jas O'Growney said:
>What kind of atmosphere do you need to work in?
Nancy said:
Questions like these are difficult for me to answer. Time and place
aren't factors. I write in my head, which is where I tend to stay unless
circumstances demand otherwise. Being out for just a short time is
usually so stimulating as to necessitate the kind of sorting and
processing of chaotic thoughts and feelings that often takes form as a
lyric, if not a whole song. Without that occasional satisfying end result
of such tedium, I might go mad HA HA HA HA.
As for rituals, nothing beats the rhythm of a long walk.
Once I had a lucid dream experience of hell, or pure evil. It wasn't
anything dramatic -- just a deliberate absence of clarity. I can't
express how much I admire and value the sincere, articulate (and funny!)
contributions of you and so many other RMMS members since I've been
online. Thanks friends!
Peter said:
> What kind of atmosphere do you need to work in?<
> Do you have rituals?<
I sometimes also record quick guitar and vocal takes of at least an intro, 1
verse, 1 chorus, and 1 bridge, either on tape or via .wav file to help me
recall the melody and rhythm better.
>Guaranteed places of inspiration?
>Do you sit down everyday at a specific time to write?<
For more information send e-mail to
ij@irenejackson.com
- the subject and feel of the song
- what parts worked well and what didn't
- suggestions for re-ordering or rewording awkward sections
... in short, any thoughtful comments.
Barby
Scott Burright
Nicholas Delonas
Jay
A great song elicits an emotional response in the writer's *audience*.
IMHO,
Dave Laurence
A great song is an accomplishment!
Just Jim
Peter
--peg
It has a whole lot of everything.......................it's magic.
LarenCorie
desperately non specific...............
tom
or
The difference to a publisher is sales.
Cheers
Marz
"A good song is one you'll remember for a while. A great song is one
you'll remember forever."
For me personally, it's the songs that stop me cold, (whichever emotion is
being yanked) and puts me smack dab in the middle of the lyric, like it was
mine and mine alone. LOL, even if I've never actually had the experience, a
great song lets (or forces) me to live it.
Sherryl
For a great song, I'll hit rewind and sing it over and over again and never
tire of it. :)
--Andrea
I believe hits are those songs that gives you a sensation of
something new, while truly great songs, on a personal level, are those
that you start to regard as "friends" that you can turn to in times of
trouble, excitement... whatever mood you're in. Really every song's not
great at every moment. But maybe that is taking the original question to
far.
Thought I wrote something great yesterday, but...
Carl
A good song is one you can sing with the "feeling" (emotions?) intact,
without much trouble. A great song is when you become the song, and it
becomes a permanent part of your soul.
I 'spose the same thing can be said with 'hear' instead of 'sing' =-)
Jessica
A great song is appealing to listeners who are into other genre's....
Great songs will tend to be covered by artists from other genres or
will undermine the separateness of the currently recognized genres...
that's one way of looking at it....
Greg Dember
Seth Jackson
Does that make sense?
Greg Jones
The problem lies in "anthem" paradox. National anthems elicit the highest
degrees of emotions, regardless how bad the song is. This is because we
are to some degree conditioned for certain things. Then there is the
"Elvis-Beattle" paradox. When there is a mania around a performer, their
songs also eliscit a high degree of emotion regardless of how bad the
songs are. The emotions carry over from previous great songs into
terrible songs.
I guess the above paradoxes leaves the issue unsettled.
Rafael
'the rock-er almost rolled; gramps slammed through the door'
'said good-bye to the chair; hello to the door'
'that bar stool was still warm when I reached the door'
'I stood up and walked out the door.' "
Walked to the door (Bah bwang diddley dum!)
[Kept tellin' myself "It don't matter no more."]
[Sorry; got carried away.]
And came face to face with a God-damned immortal/
Who told me to stuff it, that this song gig was his,/
And not go complaining how unfair life is.'
[REALLY got carried away!]
"Lots of ways to change it, but improve? That's subjective at best. I do think
that dropping the 'I' and 'and' do help in even so basic a line, though."
"I fell off the barstool, and crawled toward the light."
:-D(I'll try to come up with a better one, Irene. What an interesting exercise!)"
"How is this one. Good?
'the chair let me be as the door came to me'
"I think about how to set up this scene often. A close one to the getting out of the chair and going to the door I did is this:
Can't take anymore
My hand's on the knob
My foot's out the door
"I'm a newbie, only my second posting - and very much a learner. I can't
give you much reasoning as to whys and wherefores apart from saying that
everything's gotta have a feel or action to it - some sort of emotion.
And I flew for the door.
And pushed off for the door.
And I skipped off for the door.
"I sprang from the chair and shot to the door."
"I'd personalize it and put a little action in it:
'I shot up off my chair and I flew out the door'
So, I jumped from my chair, and got outta there........
1)Got my butt off the seat and slipped out to the street
2)Got my butt off the seat and motivated my feet
3)Got my ass off the chair and hit the thoroughfare
Hows about: I got up off my duff and was gone sure enough
or: I got up off my butt and slammed the door shut
or: From the seat of my pants to a foot in the door
Ok, here goes:
Out of Chippendale nest, I flew to the door
Through the doorway I crept, the chair still behind
I fell out of the door still sat in my seat
From the armchair I poured, and flowed to the door
When the chair let me go, the door opened wide
When I got to the door, the chair was still there
Threw the whore on the floor and ran for the door
Shit the seat where I sat and shot through the door
Derriere burst from chair, through air to the door
Threw myself from the chair, strike one for the door
My tush was ejected outta my chair when the doorbell rang and gave me a scare..
I landed like a cat on all fours..but I've had enough of answering doors.
Well... you could also take the line OUT of a literal sense and have it as a
description of possibly some sort of living transition.
Being whimsicial:
The committee members said "We've never seen THAT before!"
The chair now was empty
I was there
Through the door easily
I didn't care
Methinks
I usually like a closed room when I'm really serious, though I can write in
the living room with kids around, etc... just not as focused. My best place
for melody & lyrical development (not harmony) is often my car during my
commute, which runs about anhour each way. I play a lot of my development
tapes in the car... and build on what I have. I've written a few songs all
the way through from memory in the car & harmonized
them later at home.
Coffee
Not really. I used to think I'd get inspired at the ocean, but when I get
there I alwayshave to much to do with the kids, etc....
Wish I could. I often get the most done after everybody goes to bed.
Midnight to 1am, then getting up at 6am... I can only do that so often.
Used to only need a pen and paper (ten years ago) but now I need;
2.Modem in that computer to access my e-mail; (great timewaster that) while I'm
thinking up my next song
3.Solitaire; to while away the time I am still thinking of the song
4. Scanner; because they are out there and I wanted one, too.
5. Radio, to listen to other songs written by other writers who 'got lucky' ;-)
6. T.V. to watch the videos of the songs and decide which director I will be'
needing' in the future
7. Microwave to keep up endless supply of hot tea. Essential.
Does it look like I do from the mess I generate? Yes.
Either in my office/writing room at home or at the home of my co-writer du
jour...often at the writing rooms at my publisher or his at the row, but I
prefer being at my house or someone elses to the writing rooms...too "business
like" down there sometimes...
...well, we chant and dance a lot...just kidding. Lunch that you can write off
typically. : )"
Not for writing, but on days off and vacations I definitely do. I found a long
time ago that I can't do the "nashville" writing routine everyday. I co-write
about 3-4 days a week and write alone a couple more times. But every few weeks
I take a couple of days (or more) off. A trip to home to TX or out to the
Rockies (or even the Smokies to troutfish) helps. I get out and mess with the
cows and horses a couple times a week...it all helps."
Most co-writes start 10:00 am or 1:00 pm---I usually try to limit my writing
appointments to 3 hours or less...after that, we tend to just stare stupidly at
each other. : ) I tend to write alone late in the evening like I used to
before being on staff, back when it was more for "fun"."
A loud one. I own a shoe repair shop where I work by myself with the machines
droning away all day. It's nice because it's like being in the shower or in
the car.. you can sing and make noise and no one hears you.
Just that I always start with a fresh sheet of blank paper which I scribble my
working title on. Then when the song starts to get a story and a little
structure I transfer the scribbles to the template I made on the computer word
processor. And I date and number each draft.
When I get stuck on a line or a word I take the sheet home and invariably I
get what I'm after on the drive home or the next day on the way to work. I
use the drivetime as a problem solving device.
No way. I'm much to undiciplined for that. I only write when the lightning
strikes or the thunder rolls ...or I get bored...
I usually have to be doing something else. Something that doesn't require
thought. Work - (I'm on auto-pilot there), Exercise - (1,2,3,4, the repetition
sets up a rhythmic pattern which is attuned to songwriting, Driving - (auto-
pilot again, but freeway only, in traffic people see you singing to yourself
and think your weird).
Just about anywhere, as long as I can get to a notebook or tape recorder before
I forget what I came up with.
No.
No. My chances of coming up with something good seem to be about the same no
matter where I happen to be writing.
No, although I probably should.
You mean like having a buddist monk bless my note book ? No, but
I have to tune up a little before I play, and drink something warm
before I sing, and ... wait a minute ... maybe so.
Coffee, cigarette, any old scrap of paper, pen or pencil, guitar or
keys, comfy lawn chair, small table, no kids, no wife, and no computer
until I have a rough draft. I hate using a computer away from work;
that's one reason I started writing songs - I didn't need one of those
infernal cold machines to write. Reality appears too often, and I end
up pouring over the old I/O under a deep blue glow from Windows 95.
Any place where my mind can wonder: Book, movie, traffic jam ....
Absolutely. Every morning. Sometimes I try to work out lines that
come to me in my sleep. It's hard to capture everything. I'm a
totally different person before that first pot of coffee.
Some of my best work was done in the park with my guitar. I always carry
a notepad, so that if a lyric strikes me it has somewhere to go. Usually
the most inopportune place is where I'll get a stroke of inspiration.
(Very annoying!)
A relatively quiet one for lyric-writing and composing music only with the
mind.. Having a guitar or piano naturally helps with music composition and
with either of those the atmosphere needn't be as quiet.
Nope, though I tend to write first using paper and
pen, and sometimes write out a 2nd copy which I can actually read before typing
lyrics and chords on a computer. Oftentimes I'll write individual notes over
the corresponding syllables on my handwritten charts.
No place is guaranteed, but the bathroom has been helpful on more than one
occasion while washing my face, showering, or doing other bathroom duties. :)
It helps my composing to not have reading material in there since that
interferes with my free flow of thought. (I have 3 kids and sometimes during
the day that's the only room where I can get some peace.)
No -- I'm not that disciplined; wish I were.
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