Irene asked:

"How many of you write everyday? How many are sporadic writers? Do you feel discipline is necessary in your songwriting...or are you most successful writing only when the muse hits you?"

Chris Bailey said:

Definitely quality. A tune will pop into your head every so often, normally at night or upon waking up; sing it into the dictaphone and when you have a couple of days free, go back over your tape and make some songs. At least thats my way; I'm a melody inspired writer as opposed to finding chord progressions or lyrics and then crafting songs around them, it never worked for me that way.

Dave Boothroyd said:

Definitely inspired only. I write no more than four or five songs per year, but each one is sung and revised and rearranged and polished until it is as good as I can make it. Then I decide who should sing it, if it is not suitable for me.

Inspiration can come from a flock of birds passing overhead, or a phrase someone says, or a phone call (see another thread), or a powerful feeling. I start from ideas, then collect phrases, then find the melody, then complete the lyrics, then revise it all until everything is right.

Peter Schindelman said:

I write sporadically, usually when the muse hits, though occasionally I'll start something new without inspiration beforehand. Trying to write daily probably would bore me and thus would likely result in less inspired/more forced efforts than what result from my present method -- though I'd also likely conjure up more useful tidbits which might help some unfinished or future songs or maybe provide the thematic inspiration to write something new.

David Etheridge said:

Bits and pieces come to me over time and I shelve some and begin to develop others. I have several in the works now. I try not to work so hard on one that I get burned out. I try to do something everyday, whether it's just playing around on my instruments or mulling over lyrics. It keeps me and my songwriting in the present.

Lee Smith said:

I try to do something every day. Usually just going over the songs I have written. The new ones are usually planned. Meaning.....I'll sit down to start a new one from an idea I had while listening to music or thinking about the past, or something I heard someone say, etc. I have found that if I don't make myself work on it regularly I tend to let things sit for months with no progress.

Kenneth Nixon said:

I'm sporadic, I'd say. I'm involved with my music every single day, but lately it's been learning the technical problems accociated with making better demos, with the writing only happening when I'm inspired. When the song comes, it's almost always music first, with vague lyrics, and a probable hook line.

I abandon about 75% of my song ideas, or at least I put them on hold until the muse takes over again. But when the vibe is really buzzing, I usually finish the song once I start it. Over time, there may be a few tweaks, and usually a few lyric re-writes, because I seldom consider a song truly "finished" until it's had time to cook for a while - sometimes for a few days, sometimes several months.

Discipline doesn't work for me, at least not from the creative angle. From the tech point of view, it's necessary, because I'm a "use it or lose it" type of person - not enough of the old gray cells left to keep adding info forever, so old stuff gets pushed out to make room for new.

Gordon Hay said:

Until about four or five months ago I hadn't even attempted to write a new song in about five years and my guitar had become a very expensive dust collector , the last time I tried to sit down and write songs with people it just degenerated into petty bickering, name calling, home truths, and the usual playground stuff that I'm sure you're all familiar with. This experience totally put me off writing until recently when I started writing again with my cousin , who already plays in a band but wanted to do his own thing outwith the band. I'd forgotten how much I enjoyed it and what a personally rewarding experience it can be and now I actually can't stop writing lyrics, ( Peter's the more musically minded , I write the majority of the lyrics but he's catching up ) I get ideas for new things all the time, granted they don't all work but I never thought I was capable of writing quite so much. My muse and I are getting on very well at the moment, I only hope it lasts. I don't know if you remember Irene, the only lyric I have posted here you commented on, and very kind you were too, thank you.

Northern Aquatics said:

Well... since I have only been persuing songwriting actively for the last 3 months or so (since around xmas) I don't have alot of Quantity to speak of :)

However I've been engaged long enough to see that (at this point anyway) that I tend to be a bit sporadic untill I have something , a chord progression or melodic idea worked out and then I seem to give it quite a bit and try to finish it as much as possible--Tho I will and do "walk away" often if I get stuck- I'm still developing my relationship with my "muse" so I wait for it and try not to force things.

I think it's a rare and talented creature who can be creative on demand

I tend to keep an acoustic near to hand and bash around when I'm waiting for the kettle or watching TV - during the commercials. Ideas can come at odd times - I was watching a documentary on the Cave paintings in France and became fascinated with the idea that they were a kind of interface between the unseen and human world , been there for 30-40 thousand years and will probably be there long after the human race is gone, my point being that a few months ago I never would have considered what cave paintings on rocks implied to me and my vision of the world or that I would/could express those ideas in song

Vicky Harris said:

Hey Irene..great question. I write in spurts...creative emotional blasts that take me over. My goal is to write more though...and therefore, discipline and craft will be necessary to accomplish that. Though I do not write "quantity", my guess is those writers that do learn with each song and improve at a faster rate than my snail's pace. By the time I'm100, I'll have it figured out.

Rick Norton said:

Every other year. I'll write 30 songs in one year and spend the next year improving them over and over until I get them right.

Bill Farris said:

This is the first time I have seen this newsgroup but I intend to visit often. I rarely post to any group. I play acoustic guitars for fun with a group of friends. I am 50 years of age. I wrote my first song in July of 2000. I have written a total of 6 to date. I performed these songs without telling people I had written the songs trying to get a true feel of public opinion. I have had favorable encouragement to continue from many people when they found I wrote the songs. I may never sell a song but, if just one person likes my song I am very pleased. I definitely write sporadically and usually finish the song within a few hours of inspiration. As I write I hear the melody in my head and can usually put music to the song the same day or night. I never write until I feel a song so bottled up within me, I have to write to make room for any more data within my mind. If I don't, I feel as if my head is going to explode. I have heard music within my mind since childhood and only recently learned to express it in written form. I can't read music so I just write the notes to Tab and the chords above the words. I may never aspire to the levels in writing as many of you have but I will keep pecking at the words. A few local bands have asked me to write songs for them but I can't because the song would no longer be mine. What I guess I am trying to say is that being able to express one's self is very important to us all. The money from writing would be nice but that is not the reason many of us write. I wish everyone here peace of mind and wish the best to all whatever your aspirations may be.

Rick Paul said:

I'm not much of a blank slate person, so my prolificacy (prolificness?) tends to depend quite a bit on what helps get something on the slate as a starting point. I guess my natural output probably tends to be anywhere from 5-20 songs per year when writing alone. On the other hand, if I'm collaborating with multiple people in parallel, where I'm writing music to their lyrics, I can sometimes write more than one song in a day (my personal records are10 songs in one day and about 75 in a year).

If I really sit down and force myself to write, I can generally come up with at least a fairly respectable first full draft of a song in a day. How long it takes to get it from there to where I'd consider it worth doing anything with is another thing altogether, and could range from no time at all to years. My longest rewrite period to date most likely stands just shy of 20 years. The song is "Lust" (http://www.mp3.com/rickpaul), which is one I wrote during college, most likely around 1980 or 1981, but very recently did a bit of minor rewriting on in the course of recording it. Prior to that the record was about 15 or so years (for "It Started in a Manger", which is at the same URL -- on that one, the song was initially written in 1982 the had a complete second verse replacement in 1996, then a few more tweaks over the next few years).

I think the thing that most inspires me to write is being bored and alone. One without the other isn't sufficient. The last year or so I've been very wrapped up in trying to learn more on the production front, and my output quantity pretty much went down the tubes -- I think I only completed 2 or 3 songs last year, for example. Some of my most prolific periods of solo writing came when I was doing a significant amount of solo business travel, where I had lots of "quality time with myself" in the hotel room each night.

Gary said:

I only write when I have a reason to write as I write for a specific purpose, rather than just writing for the sake of it. If necesary I can comfortably write about 15 to twenty things a year, as some things take up to three weeks to finish with editing and arranging etc. thats nearly every day, but only if I realy have too mind you.

Roger said:

"How many of you write everyday?"

I do.

"How many are sporadic writers? Do you feel discipline is necessary in your songwriting...or are you most successful writing only when the muse hits you?"

I have no time to wait around for no muse! I just sit with my guitar EVERY day and try to find another tune I can write some fun lyrics to. I guess I'm some kind of a manic maniac.

The most interesting question is in the header; "Quantity and/or Quality?". I believe that there is no quality without quantity. However you do it, only every 10'th tune or so is a good one, so you'd better do a lot of them. I don't believe that you can save a "dead" tune with a lot of extra work (unless you rewrite almost everything), it's better to start with a fresh one instead. Every new tune is a crap shot, sometimes you get lucky - so why not the next time?

All that said, I spend more time trying to find a good melody now compared to how I did it a year ago. I don't make a tune out of every melody idea I find like before. When I do find a good enough melody I know it, and then I make the lyric quite fast (that's what I do best). I sing jibberish on the chorus melody until I find the hook that goes well with the tune. After that I do the verses accordingly. It takes a couple of hours and then it's done.

My weak spot is the music, and I've found out that playing other peoples music is a sure thing to find something fresh to start with. Many of the good ones lately has been inspired by other peoples music and some stolen chord changes.

David said:

"How many of you write everyday?"

I write everyday, but not songs....keep going:

"How many are sporadic writers?"

Although I don't write songs every day, it wouldn't be fair to call me a 'sporadic writer' either. Like a lot of professionals (which I am trying to emulate), I write for certain periods during the year. When I was in college, I did the most writing during the school semester, when I had to write songs for class assignments. Once I graduated, it took me a couple of years to sort out all that I had learned in college, I got busy looking for a job and trying to get a career started, and as a result I didn't write very much at all--I wrote sporadically in the sense that you mean it. Another reason I didn't write much then was because I had no reason to write--no assignments, nobody looking for material.

I still don't have anybody looking for material (yet--I have a job interview this afternoon that's all about writing and producing, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed). I still write occassionally, but focus most of my writing energy into the summer months--the 50 Song Challenge, from July 4th on. Last year (the first year of the challenege), the inertia from the it kept me writing far past the 90 days; I wrote up until Chirstmas Eve. I have been on a sort of hiatus since New Years, and barring any other complications will not worry about writing until the end of March. Then I'll start collecting material for the coming cycle, which should start again in July.

For anyone who doesn't know what the 50 Song Challenge is, it's sort of a casual contest/exercise (anybody can join) to write 50 songs in 90 days. I will post about it again on this newsgroup and others in June if you're interested.

"Do you feel discipline is necessary in your songwriting..."

Yes, I do. When I'm writing, I tend to go at it from morning till midnight. But I set goals, and don't let very much of anything else distract me. I have very definite times and places where I write, and don't stray from them very often.

"or are you most successful writing only when the muse hits you?"

I never ignore the muse, but I don't let it run my life, either. I've gotten some good ideas from 'the muse' but I've also incorporated that inspiration and material into my focused writing periods; re-writes, etc.

I guess the best, most accurate answer to your question is that my writing habits are a combination of the two different models you proposed; I write a lot just off of the muse, then take it and shape it, edit, re-write as if that were a 9 to 5 job. I allow myself to relax and write in a totally free mind set, no matter how productive or non-productive that is. I think it's important to listen to your muse and take advantage of inspiration and incorporate all of that into your writing, even if it doesn't always pay off--I have tons of 'inspired' material that's never gone anywhere. I wouldn't want to be tethered to a rhyming dictionary or a desk, though, either, but at some point you have to buckle down and sort it all out; what works? what doesn't? What can you make work? What's best left alone? You have to find some kind of balance in your writing, and for me that balance is most exemplified, most evident, in the balance between inspired writing and disciplined writing--it's the sum of those two things that makes up 'my habits.' Unfortunately, I couldn't put a set of precentages to it; I can't even say it's '50-50,' half inspired and half disciplined; those percentages change based on the needs at hand. If I go into a studio and need to write on command (it's happened), I can and will. Likewise, if the muse hits, I'm off and running.

Irene asked:

"When does the style of music come into play when you're writing a song...before you start, as you're writing, or do you think of it at all?"

Roger said:

It depends. Sometimes I sit down and try to write a tune in a certain style (might be a "commercial" request, or I might be playing with BIAB and trying to make a song to one of the preset styles). Sometimes I'm "inspired" from listening to a song I like and "happen" to do something like it. Other times the song itself decides what style it wants to have :-)

All three cases are common, but most of the time the style is the last part of the writing process.

Changing the style on a "finished" song can be fun too!

=Bob= said:

Hi Irene,

I usually have a very good idea of what style I'm going to write. I like to compose in many different styles, and one of my goals is to write for film. I first study the styles of music by purchasing CD's, read and post on Usenet, and join discussions interested in those styles with which I am unfamiliar. I use my music theory education to build a design framework and then I proceed to compose.

Frank said:

As a member of that rare (but not extinct) species - a writer who began with the words and added the tune later - I used to find it near- essential to know the intended style of my songs before I set pen to paper (or the inside-the-head equivalent). Of course, the direction could change during the process (I can't have been rare in that respect) but I thought the style influenced the words greatly - just as I expect an existing melody would(?) if it preceeded the lyrics.

Why the past tense? I'm moving away from "pop" styles altogether (apart from an occasional "Dylan-like" acoustic effort) and starting to explore the whole "words first" idea more deeply - coming close to setting poetry to music. If that produces "art-songs", so be it :-)

Jimi Kazoo said:

For me, it happens at the start of the process, just as the hook is taking form. If the music comes to me first, then there's usually a "groove" that comes to me, a particular rhythmic sequence that suggests the overall genre of the song. If it's a play on words or a clever title that comes to me first, then nine times out of ten it will be a country or roots rock song. If it's music and words at the same time, it tends to be a "pop" song that can often be relatively easy to move between several genres.

Peter S. said:

Sometimes as I'm writing...the music naturally suggests to me the style, but sometimes the words (and maybe even their meter) by themselves do. Yet, sometimes before I write I've already thought of an idea for a song and know what style I want to make it (i.e., "I'm going to write a rocker.")

Kenneth Nixon said:

I guess first we'd have to define "style". If the songs is going is going to be a rocker, or a laid-back acoustic tune, or a mix of both, I usually know within the first few bars. Sometimes, the song wants to stand up and scream in the middle, then settle down again near the end. The dynamics, and other such performance qualities usually develop naturally, without a whole lot of thought. I don't remember ever writing a ballad, or a head-banger on purpose, unless I was writing to suit lyrics sent to me by someone else.

If you mean "genre", I hardly ever think about that until I'm forced to put the song in some box or other on a site like Mp3.com. Otherwise, I couldn't care less how other people classify it. To me, it's just someting inside that had to come out.

James said:

Style? You mean that enters into it, too? :^)

To tell you the truth, I appreciate and listen to lots of styles, but I seem to write in just one, for the most part. (I'm assuming we're talking of style as equivalent to genre.) When I write instrumental compositions, I seem to be able to go all over the place, but I have one vocal style and I guess I'm stuck with it. ;^) Sometimes I think it's my ear -- I don't think I've ever internalized pop music of any kind into my listening. I hear it outside of me, if that makes any sense, but I don't feel it a lot of the time.

Actually, I'd like to expand in that area, but it's going to take some work. I'm starting Jazz piano lessons next week and working with a friend on developing arrangements for my music. I'm hoping to stretch my style envelope a little with these two exercises. In the meantime, I listen to RMMS and shake my head in wonder at the variety some people can produce.

Bob MacKenzie said:

Irene raises an interesting question. I suspect my answer will be different than most.

I am a lyricist. I write words. Only rarely do I come up with a melody. Although my peers actually do consider me a musician, I don't play an instrument or sing. Ultimately, my music comes as the result of a collaboration among me and my friend-colleagues.

Sometimes I may have an idea of genre or style before I start. Sometimes one or the other of my collaborators has an idea. However, it's after the fact of lyrics/melody that the style develops. We "arrange" in practice, developing parts for the voices and instruments. Often, even we are surprised at what comes out at the end. It's a very organic process and, because of the variety of material and collaborators, tends to create a very eclectic group of songs.

I love it!

Oh, I guess the short answer is the style really comes into play right at the end of the process. Up until then, anything can happen.

Ellen said:

Hi Irene, actually, I've been experimenting applying different styles to some songs, particularly since I can now do this painlessly with Band-In-The-Box. Obviously, there are limits, but some songs can sound quite acceptable in what they call Country, Pop, Rock, Gospel, Jazz, '60's, Blues, and a whole slew of substyles of these.

It's fun, also, to see how it fits the styles of specific artists that might want to perform it, and see how well their typical rhythmic and harmonic approach works on the song. Usually, eventually, one or two styles really stick out as most effective, creating the best setting for the song: I feel and hear the difference most clearly in how it affects my actual performing, in how well I sell the song. But if I felt like the setting would do really well for a different kind of voice to sell the song (to either performing artist or audience), I look forward to getting that demo'ed too.

When I write, I'm usually hearing words-and-melody together, when I add the chording (usually on guitar), it sounds that ubiquitous style: singer-songwriter, but in my head, I'm hearing a much richer backing. Some naturally have distinctive styles, but many of them can take on very different but also effective styles with different backings. It's fun, and stimulating.

Ram said:

If you mean style as in genre, then it doesn't. I have heard enough people say it to believe that what I do is very distinct and recognisable as "Ram' style", but the genres are all over the place. In fact, if I find a song following a genre, I purposely twist it so it doesn't.

If you mean style as in how it finally sounds, then a lot of it has to do with the final recording parts where I play with the /sound/. It's amazing even to me how I can take a song, say recorded using dry vocals, dry guitars, and say a piano for the keyboard, add processing to the vocals to the guitars, change the patch for the keyboard tracks and the song dramatically mutates into something I couldn't have imagined. I love doing that.

Greg Becker said:

"Style", is that as in genre or tempo?

In my case, the emotion behind the inspiration lay's the groundwork for the tempo that leads to the chord's that 'transfer' the feeling into music so I can free up my mind to begin to put word's to that emotion. Whatever genre it ends up to be is dictated by my influence's and isn't anything I bother about until the inspiration is spent and its time to "work" on the re-writes.

Unfortunately, true inspiration isn't constant so there are more time's when I sit down and intentionally write around a specific idea with a specific tempo/genre in mind, but I find those time's to take more intellectual effort to be 'original' with line's, word's and musical phrasing's. This usually amounts to no more than an exercise in creative writing and only occasionally yields something I'd want to 'show off'.

I prefer the song's that start out as deep seated feeling's that beg to be expressed, or hearing a unique phrase that set's my imagination running and then just go with where it's taking me.

Irene asked:

"What kind of planning do you do before you sit down to write a song, if anything? (I'm referring to things like deciding on key, topic, form...anything of that nature.) And this next question is a little more difficult to express...In terms of those same elements (topic, key, form, etc.) I want to know if you are a "safe" writer or do you constantly try to go to places you haven't been before?

Dixie said:

These are excellent questions because they make me think more about the process. I think I tend to let things just happen a little bit too much instead of planning things. For the hymns I write for church I usually have a visual map of some kind -- but they are more "message songs" in which people are affirming common beliefs.

My other songs usually start with an emotion I'd like to express but seems inappropriate or too large for real life. Other times it's just something I've observed in other people that I find humorous or poignant, etc. So that's kind of how I come up with topics.

Key -- sometimes it depends on what I'm writing it for. If it's to be sung as a group by guitar I usually try D or G, because all the guitarists at church are beginners. I usually write a cappella in the car now while doing errands, so it usually depends on my range.

Form --- I think I'm in a rut with this. I've written a lot of Verse chorus verse chorus bridge chorus songs lately. I like to use rhyme in my songs, but am trying to use more near rhyme patterns than perfect rhyme. I tried writing a song built on assonance and begining sounds. Most people didn't catch that it actually had a structure -- they kept saying "Where's the rhyme scheme?"

I'm glad you asked this question, Irene, because it makes me realize that I haven't been planning enough. I've been just letting things happen....which means I get an awful lot of songs which sound similar. So that must mean I'm a safe writer.

Peter said:

The times I actually sit down to write a song from scratch (as opposed to writing it after being inspired by a specific melodic ot lyrical thought) I somehow think of a topic and then tend to outline different ideas for expounding upon that topic. The chorus tends to be general and the verses tend to provide more specific examples. (I don't really know for what I tend to use the bridge(s).) I don't necessarily plan anything musically, though, certain chord progressions suggest themselves and I prefer to use melodies that don't stick too closely to root notes of the chords.

I guess I'm a safe writer, though I do try to go different places both musically and lyrically. It just all sounds like me to me.

Ty Thurman said:

When I start a song, I usually have a title, story line & tempo in mind... no key in particular (I think "key" is mostly an arrangement issue, not a writing issue, but certain keys (or really timbres on the guitar) that are created by capoing "up" can create a different mood while I'm writing. This goes for tunings as well, most often "drop D."

Since I've been performing most of my songs out, I try to write/arrange them so they fall in my natural singing voice. I used to write songs that were to "range-y" ... hard for me and I'm sure many others to sing without straining.

Form seems to follow the mood that is created by the initial skeleton. MOst of the time I like to flesh out the chorus pretty well first, so that the verses lead to it strongly.

I do occasionally experiment, but most of my experiments lately have been in learning how to do more with less. Less chords in particular. If this playing it safe, I guess I'm doing that. One way to get out of your comfort zone is to work up grooves against a drum machine that's playing a tempo or beat you do not ordinarily use. Another excellent way to learn new song forms if you are in a rut in that area, is to find a song written an unfamiliar form, rhyme scheme, etc... and write new lyrics to it, using the exact form, or something very close to it. Then write new music to your new lyrics. If you do this the right way, you will feel as though you've done a co-write with the original writers and you will have an entirely new song that has the same structure as the original. Be careful to really create something NEW when you do this exercise. You should be able to play the new song for someone and not have them be able to tell you what song you worked from.

=Bob= said:

This is a wonderful question!

The very first thing I do is decide on a title. I check BMI, ASCAP, SESAC, the Library of Congress and the web for duplicate titles. I think most writers have an idea of what their song is about before they decide on a title, but I usually go the other way -- title first, plot second. This is because it's so difficult to come up with a unique and interesting title that I found it easier if I just make it the ultimate priority.

Once I've decided on a title, I try to outline the plot of the song and how it relates to the title. I make an attempt, although not etched in stone, to outline each section of the song (verse1, verse2, pre-chorus, chorus, bridge, refrain, what have you).

I usually write for my singing trio (my family) and the vocal range places extra requirements on the music. Since we mostly sing trio style (all three voices singing most of the time, like barbershop), then the combination of ranges dictates more restrictions on the ranges. Because of that, I'll write and re-write a melody so that it can be more interestingly harmonized. In fact, I usually write all three voices as I develop a melody, without any instrumentation so I can allow the voices to dictate the vertical alignment of chords. I put as much into developing the harmonies as I would at developing the melody. This is a technique I was taught in my choral writing classes in college. My professor maintained that great harmony is much more interesting to the audience than great melody in choral pieces. I don't totally agree nor do I totally disagree with that statement. I believe in making an attempt to satisfy both, but I'll compromise one or the other now and then.

Since our trio does primarily Christian music, most subjects are of that nature, but now and then, I'll try to write a secular song. When writing a Christian song, I first locate passages from the Bible that reinforce and explain the meaning of the song, so I have a reference from which to create phrases. Sometimes I want to incorporate those phrases almost word-for-word into the lyrics.

When choosing a form, I can go many directions. I get into frames of mind where I'll be trying some really different stuff, like oddball time signatures, rhythms, lyrical methods and instrumentation. But I also love to write a hard Gospel sound -- a fusion of Southern Gospel, Black Gospel, Rock & Roll and R&B. Currently, I'm trying my hand at developing some electronica, techno and spoken word Christian music.

I'd like to believe that I can flirt with the edge, but the edge is a moving target.

David Robinson said:

Excellent question, Irene. I can see why you're the Queen of RMMS. [aww...shucks :-)]

I don't like to do a lot of planning per se. I have written that way, mostly in school, but then I learned those techniques until formulating a plan is second nature to me and I can rely on my instincts for the most part. Instead of planning ahead of time, I work things out as I go along using the same tools as I would have if I had planned ahead. I guess you could say that's the plan: I plan on using the tools, no matter what I write.

Am I a safe writer? I've written a lot of 'safe' songs, but no, I wouldn't call myself a safe writer. I don't consciously go to 'places I never been before' but I'm not afraid to go there either. And I love experimenting with things; rhythms, words, all of it.

Frank Langton said:

I nearly always begin with the idea for the lyrics, which can come from as many sources as the genesis of a poem or a story, and this suggests the form - sometimes playing the vocal sentiments against the "wrong" accompaniment if this is fun to do, or if it is genuinely ironic. Key depends on what I can sing and play adequately.

Having never previously written with any thought of my songs appealing to more than a few like-minded people (there can be only a few) I have never been "safe" - my songs have been from 50 seconds to 9 minutes in length, lyrics with and without rhyme, songs with and without choruses, middle eight, equal verse lengths etc. topics ranging from message songs about child abuse and prostitution to married-love songs, with too much variety in between to mention. What would be really adventurous for me would be to write a banal and vapid lyric without giving it an ironic twist. Or perhaps to write a memorable melody - I admit that would be a big step outside the norm :-)

David Kilpatrick said:

I tend to write in a few limited keys because I know my vocal range (or the two ranges I use). Also I'm conscious of other instrumentalists and play mainly with fiddle/bass/D flute/pipes etc and never with horns or Bb woodwinds. I write using a guitar. On the piano I used to write a lot on the 'black notes' - especially round Cm, Ab, Eb, Bb. Now that I don't do this I tend to write in G, C, D, Bm, Am, Dm, Em. I avoid writing in E or A because I don't like the sound of the guitar in those keys - especially the E/B7/A basic chord set which so many guitarists favour. But I have written in these keys as well when it's been necessary.

Andrew Riggs said:

Sometimes it's hard to pinpoint exactly when the writing of a particular song starts. Maybe there is no starting point just a continuum.

Over the years of playing music I collect interesting little musical bits that I've come up with - guitar licks, melodies, chord progressions, lyric lines, incomplete verses, and most of them get saved either in memory, written down, or archived in rough recordings. Then one day I find the missing piece and some of these disparate bits come together, and a song is finished. I think some of my best stuff comes about this way. Though not all of it, some things get started and finished in a matter of a day or two. I've always got to have an interesting chord sequence to start with - often this suggests a mood and subject matter for lyrics. I don't consider the lyrics or vocal melody the absolute most import element in a song/composition it's just one element.

As far as being a safe writer I don't think I am. Musically I like songs that challenge my ability to play them - my song "Opportunity" has a 8 bar chord sequence in the verse that changes key every bar. The songs arrangement developed over a period of maybe 2-3 years, it took me that long to learn how to play bass and guitar on it for the recording. Lyrically I just try to avoid trite banalities.

Steven Mon said:

I'm not a prolific writer; I sometimes go for months without writing a song--however, I do often come up with musical ideas that I'll record on my computer, which has tons of files like "9-12-98 idea.wav".

When I'm trying to think up new ideas, I'll pick up the guitar and start strumming chords. I almost always use the key of G. I don't know why--I just like the sound of it. The usual G C D Em stuff. If I can get a new melody out of it, I'll record the idea. I'm a big fan of catchy guitar oriented pop (i.e., Marshall Crenshaw).

I also try to deliberately play different things to get a different sound. This is difficult for me because my musical knowledge is so limited. I've been listening to a lot of Jonatha Brooke lately, and I really like the mood her music evokes, but when I try to come up with something that evokes the same mood in me, it never works.

A lot of my ideas come from watching movies or tv or from books--not from the plot, but from certain incidences in them which evoke some kind of strong feeling or thought in me--usually of a loserish pathetic bent (I'm also a big fan of F. Scott Fitzgerald and Paul Westerberg).

I've been meaning to write a song based on the title of a J.D. Salinger short story, "This Sandwich Has No Mayonaisse." I never read the story--I only remember seeing the title. Also a song based on the theme of being "put down" (I thought of this while watching The Horse Whisperer). The idea is that the listener at first thinks the song is about being insulted, but then realize it really is about ending your life. Another idea is centered around the thought, "I Wish I Was Your Chair," with the song being about someone who can't get close to a person, so the best he can do is wish he was some kind of inanimate object because having her sit on him (the chair) is the closest he'll ever get to her. Which is very pathetic.

Anyway, these are the kinds of things which preoccupy my mind. :)

Now, turning them into actual lyrics is the hard part. It is sheer torture for me to write lyrics and I hate it. It is very hard. HARD!! Because not only do they have to make sense--but then add in the work of making them rhyme and also making them clever and have some extra meaning to them...ugh!

And it's hard to try and do that without having them sound very, very stupid, obvious, and sappy. I would have to say that 98% of the lyrics posted here are really awful. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but it just shows you how hard it is to do. Every once in a while I'll try to write a "serious" song, and the harder I try, the stupider it gets! It ends up not making any sense, or sounding so awkward, etc...

Rick Norton said:

I used to write lyrics first in my head while making my hour long commute to work. I'd write them in a notebook and there they stayed and accumulated for 20 years. Some would find their way to a simple chord pattern, but they never got past that stage.

Now, as I venture further into making complete songs, I found that the easiest way is to find a subject or theme and think of a first line or catch phrase and from there everything else seems to flow into a near complete song (lyrics). I then pick up my guitar and strum some simple chord patterns until something clicks with the lyrics.

Then comes the fun part. I take the chords and enter them into into a computer program (usually Band in a Box). I try different styles until it sounds right with the drums and background instruments. The melody just sort of comes to me while playing.

From this point I either record it acoustically with just a guitar or in combination with BiaB. Since I don't have any recording equipment, except the computer and computer mike the quality is very poor, but it still will sound good enough to showcase the basic song, which is OK because I am a non-performing songwriter and the quality of the song is important to me, not the quality of the performance.

Roger said:

I don't make plans. I play along with my guitar trying to find something that stand out and makes me think, "hey, that's not bad!". If I sit for an hour without anything coming, I open a beer and watch some TV instead ;-)

If I do find a promising tune snippet, I start to sing the melody with gibberish or with some arbitrary lyric in front of me. >fter a while I find a couple of words that goes well with the tune. Alas, I got the hook and the theme. I sit another hour or so just checking my options and start writing the lyrics with Notepad on my computer (I hate to write with paper and pen). When I feel that the verse and chorus tune is about right, I really start to dig words, and that can take a couple of hours, just trying to find words and trying out the singability with a little guitar playing. In the last phase I hardly touch the guitar, I'm just staring at the words trying to find alternative ways to express whatever I'm trying to say.

When I'm done with the first version I mail it to the RMMS ;-)

The next day I spend playing and singing the tune over and over again. I change words to fit the melody line and generally reherse the song.

When everything seems tight, I use PageMaker to do the fake with the chords and record it and make an MP3.

Then I start thinking about making another one...

I try to go to different places, but I always end up with the blues :-)

Watson said:

I consider deciding these things part of the process of writing the song. When I sit down to write, this stuff is what gets worked out. I try to brainstorm a topic and a lyrical hook. Then I try to figure out how much I have to say on that topic and how to work with the hook, that helps me decide on the form. Then I write a melody based on that form and the hook. The key thing just works itself out.

I try to make sure that I'm not repeating myself in my songs. I try to make sure that I'm not writing multiple songs on the same topic or with the same theme. I try to make sure that I'm not using the same phrases or fall into ruts with certain words. Although I let my keys work themselves out (I'm not a believer in playing strictly diatonic progressions), I do keep track of which songs are in which keys. Since I prefer the keys of G, C, and A, I try to NOT write songs in those keys except occasionally.

On one latin-jazz demo I did, all the songs were in E or Em. My partner and I didn't realize it until another vocalist heard the tape and asked,"Are ALL your songs in E?" I've made sure to pay attention to the keys since then.

Ken Denny said:

One of the ways I start out writing a song is by noodling on the piano. If I'm doing major key noodling, it's usually either in F, G, or Bb. My favorite minor noodling keys are Am, Gm, or Em. Then in the course of noodling, I'll stumble across a melodic phrase that strikes me as good. I'll use that phrase as a starting point for writing a new song. The hardest part for me is the lyrics, most of my songs lyrics were written by other people.

A different approach I took that worked once was: I thought of a lyric line that made a good hook, then sat down at the piano and wrote a chorus. Boom like that I had a chorus. It took a little while longer before I came up with chords and a melody for the verse. Then I kept it in the back of my mind for weeks before finally coming up with lyrics for the verses. I've taken this approach a few other times, but those songs never got finished.

As far as being "safe" vs trying to go places I've never been. Sometimes I start out intentionally doing something different, like using an odd time signature. I have one instrumental that's in 7/4 time. I've yet to write any good lyrics for it. Sometimes I start out using a different mode, usually either dorian or myxolydian, occasionally phrygian. I've never written anything in lydian or locrian modes. As far as keys, my first draft is almost always in either F, G, Bb, Am, Gm, or Em but after I have a first draft I'll try it in different keys to find the best key for the vocalist (whether me or someone else), although there are some keys that I avoid, namely Gb and Db.

Irene asked:

"You're in a musical rut...your melodies are all sounding the same, chord progressions are uninspired. How do you get out of it?"

Bob Clayton said:

I don't. I just call it "my style." Actually, I try to deliberately make changes, usually in the chords, to see if that doesn't jar me out of it. And there's nothing like the fortuitous accident, when you play something you didn't mean to, but used your ears to say, "Wait a minute! That sounds good!"

Sometimes it seems like I can't break very far out of my "rut," though, and I think it's partly from playing in a tradition-oriented style in the first place. It's actually harder to get "far out" when you're trying for a familiar, old-shoe comfort zone in your melodies.

I have found, though, that I can occasionally break away from the tried and true by either singing unaccompanied or by trying a different instrument. Even if I take the song back to the guitar, it can be liberating to tune the banjo to an odd tuning and plunk away, or to see what falls out of the mandolin. Unusual guitar tunings can sometimes generate melodic ideas, too, although I find that I sort of gravitate to someone else's tunes when I go into DADGAD or 'Vastapol or "Sacrifice of the Goat Rag" tuning. The tendency to do what someone else has done in those tunings can be mesmerizing, if you're not careful.

VelcroSky said:

My principle instrument is the guitar so I end up writing most of my stuff on, you guessed it, a guitar. Sometimes if my chords and riffs are starting to be bland and not very creative, I will just not touch one for a week and then when I come back I have a slightly new perspective and fresh ideas. The other thing that works well is just try and write on another instrument. Something that makes you have to look at the 12 notes you have to select from in a different way.

Janice said:

When I find myself getting into a rut... writing the same song time and time again I toss how ever many there are, as the years come and go thankfully they have become few in number.

It used to be a very discouraging place for me to be. After twenty some years of writing I can now appreciate when this happens. Without it, I would barely acknowledge that I haven't been out of my make shift studio for weeks... that I have no idea what is going on in the world because I forgot to turn the radio on, newspapers that were brought in have ended up unread on the bottom of a bird cage,and my voice mailbox is crammed with earth calling janice messages . I find some clothes, get dressed and go out. I don't think it matters where, just that I go somewhere !

A new perspective, fresh strings and excitement in writing a new song. I have found that playing for others is of great help... sometimes someone will pick up on signals before I do... I listen for feedback, especially those saying ... I like this new one, it reminds me of such and such and I really liked that one or I don't like this one and I didn't like such and such either.

and.... I clean out and organize every cupboard, closet and drawer in the house !

Luis Cypher said:

After writing on guitar for 5 years, I switched to piano. When that wears out, I'll go back to guitar.

Peg said:

If I'm messing around on guitar, I put it in a strange tuning I've never tried before. I make a lot of ugly sounding mistakes ("standard" chord fingerings in alternate tunings can produce chaos :-), but more often than not, I discover a really fresh sounding chord progression somewhere in the middle of all the "mistakes."

If that doesn't work, I try to go to another instrument -- one I haven't played in a while, or one I've never played. Which reminds me. -- I've been meaning to sit down at the piano (which is currently covered in an inch of dust ;-) and see what happens. My guitar is feeling just a *little* bit tired these days.

"a" said:

I find that different guitars (even different models of the same brand) cause me to play in progressions and moods I've never played in before... albeit an expensive technique.

Nancy Riccio said:

- Tune in to RHYTHM more and find creative ways to play with rhythm in your melodies. Rhythm is what separates the men from the boys and the women from the girls...

- Start listening to lots of music in styles other than the one you write in.

- Analyze everything you hear and make up exercises using techniques you find interesting.

- Take a class or workshop from someone who really inspires you.

Rich said:

I wonder if the fact that your music's in a rut isn't an indication that some other part of your life (or all of it) is in a rut. I think sometimes it's better to focus on making other parts of your life more rewarding and the songwriting will follow. It also takes the pressure off your writing (i.e. stops you from being so hard on youself ). Other than that, a change is as good as a rest. So change something! Anything. Your instrument, your location, your clothes, anything!

songz.country said:

If I'm in a rut..... I examine, question or do the following:

1) Do I need a break? Maybe I'm trying too hard.
2) Find someone to play or write with... they'll pick up ideas from you and you'll pick up ideas from them.
3) Stop trying to sound like someone else.
4) Pick any chord and move one finger around, or remove a finger altogether and just let the open strings resound against the notes you're still holding.
5) Go listen to someone else, a different genre, era... etc... Hear them live.
6) Buy a cheap keyboard or drum machine and play against rhythms that are new to you.
7) Learn a song that uses new patterns from those in your rut.
8) Take a few lessons... even if you've played for years.
9) Pick up another instrument. Playing bass has helped me write better progressions...you begin to get a handle on passing tones and inversions when you play bass... and you can take that info back to your guitar.
10) Write in a different order from your normal pattern. If you always doodle on your instument and then add lyrics... try doodling on paper with the lyrics, and then add the right chords and melody later.
11) Face up to your weaknesses. You've been playing guitar, piano, etc... singing too, for a very long time. Ever since the first couple of big advances in knowledge, you haven't really gotten better in a while. This may be about as good as it gets for you. Maybe you are just burned out and you need to go start a career in..........
12) Get more sleep, eat right, exercise, etc... I f you are really tired you can't think very well and your brain just kind of shuts down and goes on auto pilot. This is when you start playing the same old junk over and over again.

Jim Bordner said:

Irene:

I write commercially, so I am faced with this problem frequently (or the equally difficult problem of writing in a style I'm not real good at). Here's what I do:
1. Play in a key that's alien to you.
2. Sit down with "The Real Book" and figure out some standards, picking up on interesting mistakes along the way. Or sit with your instrument and a copy of Joel Whitburn's Billboard Book and start playing hits from memory.
3. Listen to a bunch of music you don't like very much and figure out what's cool about it. Or just listen to instrumental music (classical, jazz, African drumming, ANYthing without words) exclusively for a while.
4. Play around with a new instrument, a simple one you can get something out of right away... recorder, harmonica. I have a bagpipe canter on my desk that I fool with during dry spells.

I've got a short piece on getting into new styles that will be in Keyboard mag in the next couple of months.

Jason LaPrade said:

I find myself getting into a rut when I only write in one room. Moving to different rooms definitely helps -- especially the bathroom. Getting away from the house (and an instrument) and getting away from the city has also been beneficial. A drive or a walk in a park or the countryside always seems to open things up for me.

Actually, driving anywhere seems to open me to new things. My explanation is that driving is almost like meditating. When you're focused on one thing (I'll be worried if you're not focused on driving) new and creative ideas tend to pop into your head from nowhere. You can also do a traditional form of meditating. If you're not into that, even doing a few breathing and relaxation exercises can be helpful.

Bob in Scotland said:

Hi Irene

I go back to my old answer for curing MOST musical problems..... I listen more. I can dig out old Uriah Heep rock records or Ozzy Osbourne, AC/DC, Status Quo, etc if I am bored or restless... they just move in a way that always gets me going. If it's artistic inspiration I need, then it's the YES album or Genesis or Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells 1,2 &3 albums. David Bowie for lyrical stimulation, Dire Straits or Chris Rea for smooth chord progressions with no surprises, and any Sixties music for a trip down memory lane...... Fats Waller if I want to remind myself how well off I am compared to the poor black folks(and all the others) in the Twenties and Thirties..... in other words, I look at LIFE all over again through what music I have collected during my own lifetime. That always helps me. Cheers.

Mike said:

Two "throwaway" ideas: 1) Throw away the melody: I recently started paying attention to the way lyric ideas sound when spoken, noting how the words rise and fall in pitch and where the accents seem to fall naturally. Sometimes this suggests different rhythmic and or melodic choices than the ones I fell into when the lyric/melody originally arrived. Casting the same set of words in two or more deliberately different melodies is another way of getting at this. 2) Throw away the words: By the same token, putting all your focus on the melody makes it easier to hear just where it doesn't grab you, or sounds like the last tune(s). Then you can start to come up with small or large variations in the original idea to help perk it up.

Peter said:

I may try any of the following: switching between guitar and piano (i.e., if I've played one predominantly over a given time I'll switch to the other -- switching to piano lead me to a C#dim7 which I wouldn't have found on guitar), using different voices on my MIDI keyboard, and recently using alternate guitar tunings. I might do other things as well but I'm not sure. :)